aLmk's Turbo FA5

[Si Speed 317]

Well today was pretty productive. It took a while, but I was able to gain myself a good bit more clearance for my charge pipes. I got it so I can turn the wheel a full right turn and it will not rub on the fender liner like it did before. It still doesn't fit perfect - the fender liner is being pushed into the wheel well by the charge pipe - but its significantly better. The last test will be if it will 15x8 wheels with 24.5x8.5 slicks. I do however, think with some cutting the pipe could fit even better, and not contact the fender liner at all. I just don't have the tools her to do that today, but it is certainly a lot better than it was. Hopefully tomorrow Matt C and I will be able to meet up and test his bumper out on my car since he has the newer style, since my bumper had to be cut to fit with the way the pipes come off the IC and even with it cut, its a really tight, stretched on, fit for the bumper.

I didn't mess with the clutch adjustment at all yet, as messing with these charge pipes took several hours, and it has gone into reverse just fine every time using the first gear trick. I did check the slave cylinder and it can be moved by hand, so I know the adjustment is 'right' it just could possibly be improved. I also need to spend the rest of my available time today getting ready to move all my big furniture tomorrow, so enough time spent on the car today.

Nice update, I rememeber I used to have fender liner issues. I still do slightly, but what fixed my issue(s) was cutting the outer border off. Thats the border where the clips go into the fender. I rolled all four wheel wells, so I had to cut the front two fender liners so they wouldn't hang. Worked out great actually. As for the clutch/tranny situation, glad to hear 1st-R works mint. It sucks at first, but it becomes natural after a week. And good luck, where are you moving?

Gonna do a bunch of things in the coming weeks. Gonna try to get up with a local and test fit his newer style front bumper to see if it fits with my intercooler. Gonna try to modify my charge pipe to fit even better without going into the wheel well at all (hoping that will be easy with 2 cuts and a weld), will try to get intake to fit better, gonna look for a longer 4'' coupler, and a shorter, thinner filter. Gonna get slicks and some slipstreams once someone can confirm the size for me. Gotta get an alignment. Gonna see if I can have those fittings I bought for my wastegate lines cut so I don't have to use 3 washers and can use those nice lines again rather than stupid rubber lines. Really really thinking about giving in and buying traction control. Gonna get a new clutch case, MFactory LSD, maybe a new FD because mine is very slightly damaged, and send off the 5 speed and FD to get treated. I think that is all...

That all sounds awesome. Make sure the person who cuts the fittings uses a die to clean up those threads. Thats the worst part of cutting a threaded object. And TC is amazing from what I've heard. [MENTION=56]Adm_rsx[/MENTION] has it but needs to get his new motor back and install it so he can test it under boost.

Why did you choose the MFactory LSD? I know you were deciding between a few different ones, just wanted to know what swayed you. Definitely a new FD, not worth doing everything legit and leaving a possible issue. Even though it's small, don't keep a weak link. Is your clutch case cracking or anything? Are you getting a new case from Honda, as in OEM new?

[aLmk]

Nice update, I rememeber I used to have fender liner issues. I still do slightly, but what fixed my issue(s) was cutting the outer border off. Thats the border where the clips go into the fender. I rolled all four wheel wells, so I had to cut the front two fender liners so they wouldn't hang. Worked out great actually. As for the clutch/tranny situation, glad to hear 1st-R works mint. It sucks at first, but it becomes natural after a week. And good luck, where are you moving?



That all sounds awesome. Make sure the person who cuts the fittings uses a die to clean up those threads. Thats the worst part of cutting a threaded object. And TC is amazing from what I've heard. [MENTION=56]Adm_rsx[/MENTION] has it but needs to get his new motor back and install it so he can test it under boost.

Why did you choose the MFactory LSD? I know you were deciding between a few different ones, just wanted to know what swayed you. Definitely a new FD, not worth doing everything legit and leaving a possible issue. Even though it's small, don't keep a weak link. Is your clutch case cracking or anything? Are you getting a new case from Honda, as in OEM new?

The guy that sold me the fittings will cut them, he is legit and has all the right stuff. My fender clearance is because of my charge piping not because of big wheels. I'm on stock wheels. My charge pipe is pushing on the fender liner and going into the wheel well a little. I'm gonna modify the pipe.

I picked MFactory because it seems to be really really good, and its the cheapest one, lifetime warranty as well. And The FD really isn't damaged too bad, I will post pics later when I have time, but if I need to I will replace it.

I moved just like across town basically, 17 mins from where I lived before. My house before was closer to school, but I graduated like 2 weeks ago and now I have moved into my mom's old house - renting it from her for quite cheap

[Si Speed 317]

The guy that sold me the fittings will cut them, he is legit and has all the right stuff. My fender clearance is because of my charge piping not because of big wheels. I'm on stock wheels. My charge pipe is pushing on the fender liner and going into the wheel well a little. I'm gonna modify the pipe.

I picked MFactory because it seems to be really really good, and its the cheapest one, lifetime warranty as well. And The FD really isn't damaged too bad, I will post pics later when I have time, but if I need to I will replace it.

I moved just like across town basically, 17 mins from where I lived before. My house before was closer to school, but I graduated like 2 weeks ago and now I have moved into my mom's old house - renting it from her for quite cheap

Cool, nice that he'd do that for you. Just looking out. I know your fender clearance is different than mine, I was just sharing my situation I guess.

MFactory looks nice, I checked it out. What are you scooping it up for price wise? And if the FD has any damage, IMHO I'd switch it. "Do it right and you'll do it once. "

Oh that's cool, its always great to be with family!

[aLmk]

Cool, nice that he'd do that for you. Just looking out. I know your fender clearance is different than mine, I was just sharing my situation I guess.

MFactory looks nice, I checked it out. What are you scooping it up for price wise? And if the FD has any damage, IMHO I'd switch it. "Do it right and you'll do it once. "

Oh that's cool, its always great to be with family!

Ya he's a good guy. He'll be helping me fix these last few things like the fender and intake fitment. Probably going up to the shop sometime next week at night to get it knocked out quickly and easily on a lift.

Ya I know what you mean but the damage is really really lite. Like it is just a scratch. Will post up here in a few days.

I'm not living with my mom. Just renting her old house from her. Living with my gf and a couple that just got engaged that I've known since hs and in college.

[aLmk]

So I'm looking into getting a block built on the side incase the worst were to happen with my stock block. I am in no rush with this aspect of the build, but do want to start getting some parts, so if the motor were to blow, I would have minimal downtime. I also have a good bit of learning to do in this aspect, as it will be my first motor build. I copy and pasted some discussion from 8th about it, let me know your guys' thoughts!

Naa the head weighs less than the block. The long block of our car weighs like 150-200 lbs...Idk how much the short block weighs but i can lift it alone so it can't be much. A long block is to much to lift alone so id say at least 170+ and its akward as hell to hold.

With everything on it...250-300lbs id guess. the water pump, ac, compressor, alternator are all rather heavy and it adds up quick..most hoists at the fullest extended part can lift 500-1000lbs though.

If your gonna use a type-s pump you need the A2 baffle. Ours won't work. also i used the stock crank pulley on my car...but it changes the timing marks. Their pulley is a different size.

definitely don't want their oil pan, it doesn't have the rear mount holes.

Ok, I would like to use the type-s pump as it seems to be better especially for built motor and more revs safer. So would you suggest using our crank pulley? Or the crank pulley for the a2?

Ours works totally fine, so i see no reason to buy another one. Theirs is bigger than ours, so it will slightly over spin our accessories nothing crazy though.

Since you will be timing the motor out of the car you can time it using the crank gear anyway...just line up the mark and arrow as seen below

Here is our stock pulley on the k20a2 block, see how off the actual mark is?

Ok, so the crank gear is going to be on the crank that I could buy with the motor? Also in the bottom picture I see the mark that is circled, but I also see 3 other marks, the middle one lines up with the arrow. What are those 3 marks originally for? Or were they added?

The type s pump will require you run more oil than stock anyway, getting an in-pan baffle is an option but for what you do with your car i doubt you will ever need it.

Ok well I just was reading this a little: A1/2/3/4 vrs K20Z3 oil pump - K20A.org .:. The K Series Source . Honda / Acura K20a k24a Engine Forum

A lot of it is over my head, but seems the consensus is that, perhaps the z3 oil pump is actually just as good if not better than the a2 because of the balance shafts.

How much more oil do I need for the a2 pump? You're using the a2 pump, right?

no marks were added, i honestly don't know what the other marks on the Crank pulley are for.

The z3 pump is only better for 2 things
1) it has higher oil pressure at idle, this doesn't really matter because your bearing clearances will also be different than stock which also has a huge impact on oil pressure
2) the balance shafts make a smoother idle, doesn't really matter and is pretty hard to notice.

The balance shafts can't be spun as fast. So if you wanna go to 8800 rpms then id suggest the a2 pump.

Ok, well I will probably stick with a stock head, so IDK if I can even go above 8600 rpms without at least different valve train? I'm not looking for an all out monster, just a motor that I know will last a very long time at 500whp or so, and still be reliable and simple like a stock motor. I hope that is possible.

Your going to need a valvetrain at those boost levels id suspect or you will start lifting valves with the PSI required.

Ok, is it possible to get a valvetrain that can handle is that isn't titanium and requires replacement every 20k? And at this point in time, I don't intend to necessarily push it much harder than the stock block. I just want a block that I can have a little more confidence in.

Define reliable / simple?

What cars exist with 500hp that are reliable / simple in your definition?

I know what you mean. I just basically want to beef up the stock engine a tad. The stock motor is quite strong and seems to last quite a while, but I would like something that is very stock like, but has stronger internals, just so it is more designed for 450-500whp. I don't really want sleeves or crazy cams.

Reliable is relative to the eye of the beholder, I'm asking for Andrew's definition of it so we can better advice him.

If possible I'd like it as reliable as the stock engine is, just stronger.

You can rock the stock valves...you need higher rate springs to keep said valves closed with higher boost levels.

Ok, can I get higher rate springs that are not titanium and will last quite some time?

Oh by the way I have some Prayoonto stage 2's that are awesome for turbo set ups! :eyebrows:

Ok, but I really am not trying to go crazy here, I just want something simple and stronger. I like the stock engine If I knew it would last till 200k boosted I wouldn't be doing anything, but I think that's a bit of a stretch.

The stock sleeves crack eventually at 500whp.

Shooting from the hip here, you could probably do a Darton sleeved block, Skunk2 Alpha rods, OEM pistons, OEM dual valve spring seats/retainers off an 02 RSX Type-S and Skunk2 Pro-Series valve springs in the 70lb range.

That would be reliable @ 500-550hp for ~100k miles if built right.

Yea they would, I don't even necessarily want to run 500whp, just want to be able to do 450 for a LONG time. And occasional 500+whp with race gas. Probably never going to see a turbo larger than a GT3076.

Why darton sleeves? What is Vit using? I know bulliedog has benson sleeves. How are skunk2 rods?! Why not upgrade the pistons if I'm doing all that? (legit question). Why the valve springs from an 02 type s? Could it be 02-04? What is the lb rating for the stock valve springs?

That sounds like exactly what I'd want in terms of power capability and mileage.

Thanks so much for the input.

Valve springs are not made of titanium. Titanium doesn't flex. Springs are made of steel. The Skunk2 Pro Series springs are made by one of the best spring winders in the USA. They are incredibly high quality and are used on 1400hp SFWD drag cars reliably.

Darton makes the sleeves to his specs.

Ok, any reason you chose the bensons over the dartons?

Vit is using the Dartons. They are an open deck design. You want open deck for better coolant distribution on a DD. I'm not familiar with the Bensons so I can't compare. They used closed deck on really high hp cars for rigidity so the sleeves won't move/crack, but those cars don't sit in stop/go and heat cycle a lot so it doesn't matter.

The Skunk2 Alpha rods are really nice. A couple guys on 8th have used them and been really impressed by them. They are a revision of Jeff Giovino's GO Power rods, but made at a better foundry. They are good stuff.

The RSX in early 02 came with dual valve springs / seats / retainers. They changed late in the model year to a single spring setup. You can still get the dual seats / retainers from Honda though. I'm saying you can use those pieces with an upgraded Skunk2 spring for a mostly OEM setup, but upgrade the springs which is what is most important.

Ok that's really cool stuff. Sounds like a good combination. But why still stock pistons? Are aftermarket pistons less reliable?

Stock pistons don't expand / contract as much as aftermarket forged pistons. Sure forged pistons are more forgiving if something goes awry, i.e. less likely to melt, but they come at the cost of poor tolerances on the piston walls. This means the motor is louder and the ring gap has to be set in such a way that they wear and fail much faster. You won't get more than 75-80k out of a forged piston motor without it beginning to use copious amounts of oil due to the rings failing.

Supposedly wiseco has a special metallurgy they use that helps with this a bit, but I still have it on authority from Jeff that you won't see more than 85k out of a forged piston motor before it needs a rebuild.



I'm not sure what you're referring to here.

Ok that makes sense, 75k isn't terrible. Don't I run the risk of destroying a stock piston at 20 psi for long periods of time? Or are they really THAT strong?

Also are the alpha series valve springs from skunk2 not good enough for what I want? Is that why you suggest the pro series over them?

Again, long periods of time is relative. And... if it's tuned correctly, your IAT's post compressor are low, and you're running quality fuel... no I think they'd be fine for a LOT of power.

I don't know anything about the alpha series springs. I just asked Jeff about the pro ones since that's what I was interested in running with my KW kit. He gave me the low-down on them so I went with them. I pulled them out of the box after receiving them and yeah... they look OEM Honda quality. The metal just looks perfect.

Ok cool thanks a bunch for the input! That type of motor build sounds a bit unique, but perfect for what I want. Although I never expected to sleeve anything. O well I guess that will give me lots of peace of mind.

Are you sticking with stock cams? Would you suggest I stay with stock cams as well?

I am not. I have some Skunk2 Unicorn cams that I'm waiting on. IMO, there are no cams for our motor that will work well for what you want to do. Stick to stock for reliability. They obviously work well.

yeah, he has them make them to his specs.

Dan Benson Racing - Benson Signature Series Block Sleeves


Well maybe I was wrong but I thought I read somewhere that he had Darton make them for him, but it really doesn't matter

Ya I checked out his site. I just wanna know roughly what it costs. I don't want to email him yet as I am far from being ready to send him a block, just in planning stages.

Dartons are not an open deck. They are a semi-closed deck, meaning they use the same principals as a closed deck, but they did the research to see where they could run coolant ports in the deck around the sleeves to try and improve coolant flow (over even stock flow).

OK well what do you suggest?

For what?

Dartons are fine.

The sleeves ERL uses are better, probably the best on the market, but $$$.


Stock sleeves are fine, they are good to 800hp. I'm not sure where Jay is getting this 500hp crap.

Hmm ok, well maybe I can just save myself a good bit of money and stick with stock sleeves. Vit in case you didn't see the discussion, I just want a built motor that is essentially as reliable as stock and will last a while like 100k miles at 450-500whp. Would the stock sleeves be ok at 86.5mm? This is what Jay suggested and I like the idea:

Shooting from the hip here, you could probably do a Darton sleeved block, Skunk2 Alpha rods, OEM pistons, OEM dual valve spring seats/retainers off an 02 RSX Type-S and Skunk2 Pro-Series valve springs in the 70lb range.

Stock sleeves are not good for 800hp for more than a month or two. Andrew is looking for 100k+ reliability here. Stock sleeves will crack @500hp within that time frame. It's a fact.

They will not. That has been proven to be a false statement buy the guys running 700whp+ on stock sleeves for THREE years


500hp is hardly a reason to sleeve the motor.

Now 600hp+... sure.

Oh geez... two major gurus arguing. Now I definitely don't know what to do lol. It seems a lot of people have success with the stock sleeves. This would very likely be on pump93 as well Vit, if that makes a difference. Only one e85 station in DE.

800 != 700, and 3 years != 100k miles. So I'm not sure what you are trying to communicate here. I'm not trying to argue with you here, but Andrew needs straight talk, not hopes and dreams.

This is straight talk -> I said 700whp+ because they car was tuned in the 800whp range and finally cracked a sleeve at like 850 or something like that. It ran in the 700-800whp area for 3 years -- street racing, drag racing, the works. Obviously this is being done on race fuel so it helps a LOT, but 450-500 on pump gas (93 octane) isn't exactly crazy nowadays.

The reason I don't recommend sleeves for that power level is they can be more of a headache than a blessing.

I can't even begin to count how many stock block turbo cars I have tuned to 450-500 -- the list is essentially endless.

You know how many have cracked a sleeve?

None.

In fact, it's a twist of irony, the ONLY failures I've witnessed over the years are guys running log manifolds/greddy kits not even squeezing 350 out of the car... random parts in the block failing (one guy had a wrist pin go out.. wth lol).

In fact, the weak spot on your build with stock pistons are going to be the factory wrist pins. They will probably break at 500 well before your sleeves crack (with a proper tune :giggity).

:cornmad: now I really don't know what to do. Will have to do more reading, and looking at the price of everything. If forged pistons will last 80k miles, or just under, that's a lot. My current engine has just under 80k miles on it and I've had the car for 6 years. So if I can get 6 years out of a built motor, that's not so bad!

What do you think about stock sleeves at 86.5mm? 10.5:1 comp?

10.5:1 comp, no less. Even if you have to custom order them.

BTW I recommend JE's -- after my long chat with ERL, they are the better piston for boost because they have a full skirt (gives the piston or strength). Get the upgraded wrist pins. It breaks my heart to see a motor go because a wrist pin bent and the piston skirt broke off because of it.

Ok and you think stock sleeves would be ok at 86.5mm?

Ok that makes sense. Would you recommend flat top pistons? Are you regretting going with wiseco?

I would honestly overbore as little as possible, but 86.5 has been proven to be fine at your power level.



10.5:1 c/r you won't get flat tops. Whether the pistons are flat top or not is going to be highly dependent on your C/R ratio. I do not recommend low c/r for a street car -- it will suck out of boost.

Wiseco makes a very good piston, no I do not regret it.

BTW there's no guarantee a motor will last forever, built or not -- manure happens. Seen quite a few sleeved motors drop a sleeve now... lots of bad machine shops.

Ya ideally I'd stick with stock bore, but it seems when you buy an old bare block and build it, that you have to over bore it a little. Maybe I'm mistaken?

Is flat top generally more for lower compression? I would like to keep comp close to stock, like 10.5:1 as it will remain a street car entirely.

I had always thought I'd go with wiseco, but if you think JE is that much better, I see no reason why not to.

And I know this, I'd just like to increase my chances. I really like the stock motor and kinda wanna drive it till it blows, but I'd like to have something I can swap in when that happens.

Wiseco/JE are both made in the same facility. JE just has a full skirt, which is a plus for boosted cars.

10.5:1 will have a very small dome.

This block is for sale on k20a:

It has AEBS sleeves. Anyone have any experience with these? Is this a semi-open deck design? I see the coolant ports there, but I am not totally familiar with this open deck vs. closed deck vs. semi-closed/open deck. To me this looks to be fully closed, but with coolant ports.
This is a pic Vit posted of Darton Sleeves that are semi-closed deck (is there a difference between semi-closed and semi-opened?):

[aLmk]

Well went on the first 'real' drive today in 2 months to take a log for Vit. 3k-8k. Awesomely, its back to creeping again, it creeped to 16.3 psi at ~7500rpm when the coupler connected to the turbo blew off, so I didn't hit boost cut, but now I have no boost. So ******* sweet!! So I have to fix that coupler, and I honestly need to re-clock the compressor housing because I noticed today when I changed my plugs out (did this right before going on the log) that the coupler was touching the manifold which is not good, but it had to be angled up like that to clear the heater hose... Hopefully some force with the pipe in the coupler will push the heater hose down a little and give me clearance from the manifold. Here's a pic of the blown coupler:

Honestly I'm half tempted to put this kit for sale for like $3k, eat my loss, and get a synapse or PRL kit. :banghead:

[Si Speed 317]

Well went on the first 'real' drive today in 2 months to take a log for Vit. 3k-8k. Awesomely, its back to creeping again, it creeped to 16.3 psi at ~7500rpm when the coupler connected to the turbo blew off, so I didn't hit boost cut, but now I have no boost. So ******* sweet!! So I have to fix that coupler, and I honestly need to re-clock the compressor housing because I noticed today when I changed my plugs out (did this right before going on the log) that the coupler was touching the manifold which is not good, but it had to be angled up like that to clear the heater hose... Hopefully some force with the pipe in the coupler will push the heater hose down a little and give me clearance from the manifold. Here's a pic of the blown coupler:

Honestly I'm half tempted to put this kit for sale for like $3k, eat my loss, and get a synapse or PRL kit. :banghead:

It all depends on why you're creeping. Could be simple enough. Which kit is this again, Boost Junkyz? Lets figure this out. [MENTION=903]Boost Junkyz[/MENTION]

Also, can you make a new thread with the 8th convo please? It'd be nice to get the bigger topics to be on their own so its easily searched and found for us and other members for future reference.

[aLmk]

It all depends on why you're creeping. Could be simple enough. Which kit is this again, Boost Junkyz? Lets figure this out. [MENTION=903]Boost Junkyz[/MENTION]

Also, can you make a new thread with the 8th convo please? It'd be nice to get the bigger topics to be on their own so its easily searched and found for us and other members for future reference.

Which 8th convo? And I have no idea why I'm creeping. I creeped after initial install for a few weeks. Tried EVERYTHING I could to get it fixed/make sure nothing was failing, even bought a new wastegate. My last test was to put a different spring in the wastegate, I did that like 6 weeks ago (this was before second gear broke), I put the 8 psi spring in, and it STILL creeped. Then the next day, without changing anything, car literally sat in the driveway all day, it stopped creeping FOR NO APPARENT REASON WHATSOEVER. While it was at the shop getting the trans repaired, I asked him to put my 4 psi spring back in, since the spring didn't make the difference in the creep, it just stopped for no reason before, and he did so without even removing the wastegate from the car, so I know he couldn't have 're-installed it wrong'. He even notched my subframe out a bit more so it fits without the dumptube touching anything, and with the cowl off, I can visually see that the dumptube is touching nothing. I'm just fed up with everything. The fitment is sub-par, the wastegate design is not ideal, the chargepipe is goofy and goes into the wheel well, it also popped off my turbo today because of bad fitment. I'm just really regretting not buying a brand new PRL kit instead of this, as I have spent a lot of money trying to get this to work, and it simply hasn't. I have easily spent more than a new PRL kit would have cost, and it would fit, with the stock battery in the stock location, without having to cut my bumper, without crazy unexplainable creep, without a turbo that has slightly damaged fins, without charge pipes that go into the wheel well and cause your fender liner to rub on your wheel on sharp turns, without having to cut the shit out of my subframe, and I would have gotten a brand new GTX turbo. I'm just mad at myself and the situation.
/RANT

[monjarassi]

I feel ya man. Can't blame no one else but yourself at this point.

Gl in the future.whichever route u take.

[Si Speed 317]

So I'm looking into getting a block built on the side incase the worst were to happen with my stock block. I am in no rush with this aspect of the build, but do want to start getting some parts, so if the motor were to blow, I would have minimal downtime. I also have a good bit of learning to do in this aspect, as it will be my first motor build. I copy and pasted some discussion from 8th about it, let me know your guys' thoughts!


Ok, I would like to use the type-s pump as it seems to be better especially for built motor and more revs safer. So would you suggest using our crank pulley? Or the crank pulley for the a2?




Ok, so the crank gear is going to be on the crank that I could buy with the motor? Also in the bottom picture I see the mark that is circled, but I also see 3 other marks, the middle one lines up with the arrow. What are those 3 marks originally for? Or were they added?

Ok well I just was reading this a little: A1/2/3/4 vrs K20Z3 oil pump - K20A.org .:. The K Series Source . Honda / Acura K20a k24a Engine Forum

A lot of it is over my head, but seems the consensus is that, perhaps the z3 oil pump is actually just as good if not better than the a2 because of the balance shafts.

How much more oil do I need for the a2 pump? You're using the a2 pump, right?


Ok, well I will probably stick with a stock head, so IDK if I can even go above 8600 rpms without at least different valve train? I'm not looking for an all out monster, just a motor that I know will last a very long time at 500whp or so, and still be reliable and simple like a stock motor. I hope that is possible.


Ok, is it possible to get a valvetrain that can handle is that isn't titanium and requires replacement every 20k? And at this point in time, I don't intend to necessarily push it much harder than the stock block. I just want a block that I can have a little more confidence in.

I know what you mean. I just basically want to beef up the stock engine a tad. The stock motor is quite strong and seems to last quite a while, but I would like something that is very stock like, but has stronger internals, just so it is more designed for 450-500whp. I don't really want sleeves or crazy cams.


If possible I'd like it as reliable as the stock engine is, just stronger.


Ok, can I get higher rate springs that are not titanium and will last quite some time?


Ok, but I really am not trying to go crazy here, I just want something simple and stronger. I like the stock engine If I knew it would last till 200k boosted I wouldn't be doing anything, but I think that's a bit of a stretch.


Yea they would, I don't even necessarily want to run 500whp, just want to be able to do 450 for a LONG time. And occasional 500+whp with race gas. Probably never going to see a turbo larger than a GT3076.

Why darton sleeves? What is Vit using? I know bulliedog has benson sleeves. How are skunk2 rods?! Why not upgrade the pistons if I'm doing all that? (legit question). Why the valve springs from an 02 type s? Could it be 02-04? What is the lb rating for the stock valve springs?

That sounds like exactly what I'd want in terms of power capability and mileage.

Thanks so much for the input.




Ok, any reason you chose the bensons over the dartons?

Ok that's really cool stuff. Sounds like a good combination. But why still stock pistons? Are aftermarket pistons less reliable?


Ok that makes sense, 75k isn't terrible. Don't I run the risk of destroying a stock piston at 20 psi for long periods of time? Or are they really THAT strong?

Also are the alpha series valve springs from skunk2 not good enough for what I want? Is that why you suggest the pro series over them?


Ok cool thanks a bunch for the input! That type of motor build sounds a bit unique, but perfect for what I want. Although I never expected to sleeve anything. O well I guess that will give me lots of peace of mind.

Are you sticking with stock cams? Would you suggest I stay with stock cams as well?



Ya I checked out his site. I just wanna know roughly what it costs. I don't want to email him yet as I am far from being ready to send him a block, just in planning stages.



OK well what do you suggest?

Hmm ok, well maybe I can just save myself a good bit of money and stick with stock sleeves. Vit in case you didn't see the discussion, I just want a built motor that is essentially as reliable as stock and will last a while like 100k miles at 450-500whp. Would the stock sleeves be ok at 86.5mm? This is what Jay suggested and I like the idea:

Shooting from the hip here, you could probably do a Darton sleeved block, Skunk2 Alpha rods, OEM pistons, OEM dual valve spring seats/retainers off an 02 RSX Type-S and Skunk2 Pro-Series valve springs in the 70lb range.


Oh geez... two major gurus arguing. Now I definitely don't know what to do lol. It seems a lot of people have success with the stock sleeves. This would very likely be on pump93 as well Vit, if that makes a difference. Only one e85 station in DE.



:cornmad: now I really don't know what to do. Will have to do more reading, and looking at the price of everything. If forged pistons will last 80k miles, or just under, that's a lot. My current engine has just under 80k miles on it and I've had the car for 6 years. So if I can get 6 years out of a built motor, that's not so bad!

What do you think about stock sleeves at 86.5mm? 10.5:1 comp?

Ok and you think stock sleeves would be ok at 86.5mm?

Ok that makes sense. Would you recommend flat top pistons? Are you regretting going with wiseco?

Ya ideally I'd stick with stock bore, but it seems when you buy an old bare block and build it, that you have to over bore it a little. Maybe I'm mistaken?

Is flat top generally more for lower compression? I would like to keep comp close to stock, like 10.5:1 as it will remain a street car entirely.

I had always thought I'd go with wiseco, but if you think JE is that much better, I see no reason why not to.

And I know this, I'd just like to increase my chances. I really like the stock motor and kinda wanna drive it till it blows, but I'd like to have something I can swap in when that happens.



This block is for sale on k20a:

It has AEBS sleeves. Anyone have any experience with these? Is this a semi-open deck design? I see the coolant ports there, but I am not totally familiar with this open deck vs. closed deck vs. semi-closed/open deck. To me this looks to be fully closed, but with coolant ports.
This is a pic Vit posted of Darton Sleeves that are semi-closed deck (is there a difference between semi-closed and semi-opened?):

This one. And i'll read your rant in the morning, im half asleep. We all need to let off steam! I look forward to helping you