Lets talk Gears ..Options ? Differences ? Ratios ?

As we all know the stock K series transmission is the weak link in any boosted K series car .I have always wanted to build a transmission for my boosted K as the stock trans has limited me on the size of the turbo I can/will run and kept me from competing at the drag strip for fear or breaking the transmission all the time .I must admit I know very little when it comes to this topic of built transmissions .I have installed a quaife in two transmissions now so I am somewhat familiar with the inside of the K Transmission but am looking for my best options for a street car that will also see the drag strip on occasion .What are the choices ? ppg ? mfactory ? I know their are helical and straight cut gears and helical are best for a street driven car as the straight cut gears are noisy .I want some advice from people who have actual first hand experience and knowledge on the topic .Please help me / us out. What will work best ? What are the different gears rated at hp wise ? Is a different/heavy duty final drive also necessary ? I am full of questions and looking for answers so please chime in lets hear it form those who know and can help !

Such a great topic can't wait to see the answers gurus will have.

When it comes to tranny talk, im a dud.

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Originally Posted by monjarassi

Such a great topic can't wait to see the answers gurus will have.

When it comes to tranny talk, im a dud.

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Absolutely me too ! I have gotten to know the K engine pretty well now it's time to focus on the weak link the Transmission :ohnoes:

Bump !

Was going to respond to this earlier but needed to gather some info to do so.

With that said...



I don't have much personal experience with built transmissions BUT I do know a friend of mine had a PPG final drive and stripped it clean and he made 900+whp spinning the tires on the dyno. Not sure how only God knows.

I personally will be getting a base model 5 speed trans and will be getting a 1/2 dog set. I would just throw the 1/2 from PPG in my 6 speed but the ratios are my in its favor... These settings below are based off of my setup and my setup alone. The rev limit is set where it is due to restrictions of the blower rpm.
You can easily go to MFactory gear calculator and try your revs out.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/11/19/e9edenu2.jpg
What we've got here is your standard 05-06 rsx-s transmission ratios on a 24.5'' slick.


http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/11/19/zu4a8u5a.jpg
Now here we have the same trans with the PPG 1/2 dog set in. (2.83/1.93)

You can see the gears are longer and therefore give more mph for the same rev limit.

From:
1st gear - 38mph
2nd gear - 59mph

To:
1st gear - 44mph
2nd gear - 65mph

Which will help with your 60 ft time being your most likely just part it when you click 2nd.

And you see 3rd gear is only going to 83mph. And that is just a useless gear change for 1/4 mile.


Now since I have a 4.389FD it's basically a 02-04 rsx-s trans minus the speed gear on the diff.

This allows for ratios like :
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/11/19/a7y4y6e6.jpg

3rd would only get you to 90mph and 4th only to 119 which requires me to click into 5th gear and in drag racing more shifts =more ET. and ain't nobody got time for that!

So this is why I want a 5 speed trans to start with.

It will allow:
3rd gear - 112mph
4th grade - 148mph

Those ratios are more set for staff racing and ehh better gas mileage :shrug:

Now PPG also has a (2.615/1.611) 1/2 dog set and that will further more mph at the same given rpm.

It's ratios are meant for I'd guestimate 750+whp applications.

Or for those that stay in 1st and 2nd gears mostly in circuit tracks.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/11/19/evajyjut.jpg
A whopping 55mph in 1st and 89mph in 2nd gear. That's just not enough acceleration rate for my power level. Anyways how this helps some decide on which ratios to go for.
[MENTION=83]vdubkilla[/MENTION] I'd never get a PPG helical cut set simply because pfitzner himself shows a Video on how to drive a dog box daily. He says unlike a synchro at you can't tags time pulling the shifter into the next gear. It has to be quick and meaningful. Which with how we drive or cars and like it will be no big deal.

Straight cut synchro set I'd say is more so a weekend warriors choice. Something that rarely sees a track. So in my case that's a no go being as I bring my beast to the track already half broke and try to go for personal bests. Lol

Great thread. I've learned this information with the assistance of my dear friend [MENTION=56]Adm_rsx[/MENTION] over time. Here I go:

Many companies (Frana, etc) actually weld gears together to make them stronger, which is great over OEM but crap if you want to change your gears once and forget about it. PPG Gears are made from solid blocks of high-grade billet aluminum, so you're getting phenomenal quality with them over everyone else. Added to this, is their lifetime warranty. Now, there are 2 gear types:

Helical Cut
http://imageshack.us/a/img9/7518/vf7l.jpg

And Straight Cut
http://imageshack.us/a/img600/1102/atcr.jpg

You see the difference?
Helical: ///////////
Straight: ||||||||||

Helical gears are what nearly ALL transmissions come with from the factory. Now, straight cut gears are far stronger than helical no matter how you put it. They allow full-face contact as they interlock.

The biggest weak point, aside from the gears themselves, are the synchros. They're used to make the gear 'catch up' to the engine speed, and allow for smoother shifting for daily driving. Have you ever felt grinding as you're shifting or have a gear pop out? That's your synchro's reminding you how much they hate you. The real issue is that we all technically need to wait a split second between shifting gears in a synchro-based transmission. Why? Because the synchros are making the gear speed 'catch up' to the engine speed (rpm). That takes a second. Also, having synchros means less room for gears, so they have to be thinner (narrower) and thus, weaker. Starting to see why we're having the problems we all end up having?

Here's what we all want: Dog Gears (dog box). These allow for solid full-throttle shifts regardless of engine or transmission speeds (whereas a synchro setup is trying to match the two speeds, thus the tons of synchro problems). Dog gears are all straight cut. You pick a gear, you go in. That's it. The difference is you have to pick a gear and go for it. No hesitation allowed. PPG has their own special 'dog engagement interlocking system' that allows for much better gear engagement and are much stronger. And with no synchros, the gears can be larger (wider) and much, much stronger! And the best part is that PPG dog box gears CAN be daily driven and taken on long distances! Some companies don't have any oil passages, which mean no heat dissipation and no long drives. But PPG has our backs, and makes amazing products. From gears to final drives to synchros and everything in-between.

I hope all this makes sense. If not, ask!

I'm sure most of you have seen this, but bringing it over here as it is a good reference for this type of discussion:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...v3-28-08re.jpg
Here is a video that shows how loud the straight cut gears can be for normal driving:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gmg9WFfL2io

Also I have a base rsx 5 speed for sale right now, it's already taken apart, meaning the gears are pressed off the shafts, so I could easily sell you 3th and 4th gear if you're interested @<u><a href="http://www.boostedk20.com/forums/member.php?u=56" target="_blank">Adm_rsx</a></u>

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Si Speed 317

Great thread. I've learned this information with the assistance of my dear friend [MENTION=56]Adm_rsx[/MENTION] over time. Here I go:

Many companies (Frana, etc) actually weld gears together to make them stronger, which is great over OEM but crap if you want to change your gears once and forget about it. PPG Gears are made from solid blocks of high-grade billet aluminum, so you're getting phenomenal quality with them over everyone else. Added to this, is their lifetime warranty. Now, there are 2 gear types:

Helical Cut
http://imageshack.us/a/img9/7518/vf7l.jpg

And Straight Cut
http://imageshack.us/a/img600/1102/atcr.jpg

You see the difference?
Helical: ///////////
Straight: ||||||||||

Helical gears are what nearly ALL transmissions come with from the factory. Now, straight cut gears are far stronger than helical no matter how you put it. They allow full-face contact as they interlock.

The biggest weak point, aside from the gears themselves, are the synchros. They're used to make the gear 'catch up' to the engine speed, and allow for smoother shifting for daily driving. Have you ever felt grinding as you're shifting or have a gear pop out? That's your synchro's reminding you how much they hate you. The real issue is that we all technically need to wait a split second between shifting gears in a synchro-based transmission. Why? Because the synchros are making the gear speed 'catch up' to the engine speed (rpm). That takes a second. Also, having synchros means less room for gears, so they have to be thinner (narrower) and thus, weaker. Starting to see why we're having the problems we all end up having?

Here's what we all want: Dog Gears (dog box). These allow for solid full-throttle shifts regardless of engine or transmission speeds (whereas a synchro setup is trying to match the two speeds, thus the tons of synchro problems). Dog gears are all straight cut. You pick a gear, you go in. That's it. The difference is you have to pick a gear and go for it. No hesitation allowed. PPG has their own special 'dog engagement interlocking system' that allows for much better gear engagement and are much stronger. And with no synchros, the gears can be larger (wider) and much, much stronger! And the best part is that PPG dog box gears CAN be daily driven and taken on long distances! Some companies don't have any oil passages, which mean no heat dissipation and no long drives. But PPG has our backs, and makes amazing products. From gears to final drives to synchros and everything in-between.

I hope all this makes sense. If not, ask!

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That's a bold claim, I certainly do not want straight cut gears for my DD. If my civic turns into a weekend/track car only then yea I would consider it, but no way could I deal with that noise all the time.

what would you be charging for the gears I'm interested in 3rd 4th and 5th

s4 IG-petefromthestreets
Cage plus radio member #1

I have always been told straight cut gears aren't something you want to daily. No because of the noise but because of the heat, yes they have oil passages, but from what i've been told if your stuck in traffic or something like that its not something you want to daily. Again thats just the information I have always been given from people who have been in this for much longer than most of us, i know everyone has their opinions just thought I would throw a little of what I have in here
Great info thus far!

Personally if you daily your car you won't be racing therefore wouldn't have a need for gears as such. It would be best to stick with the helical cut synchro PPG set. But when your spending 5k+ on them I'd rather get the straight cuts plus PPG only offers a 1-4 gear set so you still have 5th and in some cases 6th gears to use on highways so noise is more then stock but who's car here who needs a built trans isn't louder then stock already?

s4 IG-petefromthestreets
Cage plus radio member #1

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Frostydc5

I have always been told straight cut gears aren't something you want to daily. No because of the noise but because of the heat, yes they have oil passages, but from what i've been told if your stuck in traffic or something like that its not something you want to daily. Again thats just the information I have always been given from people who have been in this for much longer than most of us, i know everyone has their opinions just thought I would throw a little of what I have in here
Great info thus far!

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Thank you for posting this! PPG themselves ensures there is absolutely no problem. The only problem would be a lack of oil passages. But all PPG gears have them, so none of us need to worry!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adm_rsx

Personally if you daily your car you won't be racing therefore wouldn't have a need for gears as such. It would be best to stick with the helical cut synchro PPG set. But when your spending 5k+ on them I'd rather get the straight cuts plus PPG only offers a 1-4 gear set so you still have 5th and in some cases 6th gears to use on highways so noise is more then stock but who's car here who needs a built trans isn't louder then stock already?

s4 IG-petefromthestreets
Cage plus radio member #1

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Yeah man i know what your saying, in my case the car is going on the track this upcoming season, this winter is going to be all track prep but its still going to be my daily for the time being. Money will determine what happens trans wise.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Frostydc5

Yeah man i know what your saying, in my case the car is going on the track this upcoming season, this winter is going to be all track prep but its still going to be my daily for the time being. Money will determine what happens trans wise.

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Oh I hear you lol! I'm glad your car is able to be daily'd once that twin disc went in it s all over lol. Who am I kidding once the modding got serious it was all over.

s4 IG-petefromthestreets
Cage plus radio member #1

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adm_rsx

Oh I hear you lol! I'm glad your car is able to be daily'd once that twin disc went in it s all over lol. Who am I kidding once the modding got serious it was all over.

s4 IG-petefromthestreets
Cage plus radio member #1

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yeah man this winter hoping to send it out to get the cage done first then the twin disk needs to be ordered and some other stuff is gona get done.... still gona daily it, i cant afford a another car ATM, and now im regreting selling my daily
from when i was building oh well

My mother and father always told me to not mod the car if it was my daily. I spent 5 years not listening. I'd be in the garage till 2 or 3 am fixing my car so I could drive to work the next morning. I realized once I blew my Motor it was time to get a daily. I've had it ever since. I'll never make the mistake again. Plus I can't keep my foot of the gas pedal

s4 IG-petefromthestreets
Cage plus radio member #1

Wow lots of good advice so far but I'm still unsure what to do .I have heard s/c guys break 1st and 2 nd and us turbo guys break 3 rd and 4 th which I have experienced once already .This may be a stupid question but I believe it's a valid one that will help me and others so here goes .Could I run a stock 1st, 2nd gear and do a ppg sycro set 3,4 as that would likely do the trick for my set up as I don't throw much boost at it in 1 st and 2 nd anyway and have never had an issue with either gear hell I mis shifted 2 nd gear this summer and it probably saw huh 13-15,000+ rpms :oops: really not sure but it was unhurt by it lol I got lucky in some aspects of that over rev I guess .I do run a twin disc on the street and really don't mind it much the one thing that helps is trying to rev match it though as the engagement can be harsh if you don't rev match and still run the stock clutch fork / set up.The Daily driver thing is also good advice Adam I couldn't imagine trying to daily a boosted k and beat on it and expect long term reliability no matter how well it's built .

I'm sure you could run the 3/4 gear set with no issue. I'd just stick with the 5speeds 1/2. And I'm sure it would give you some peace of mind.

s4 IG-petefromthestreets
Cage plus radio member #1

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adm_rsx

I'm sure you could run the 3/4 gear set with no issue. I'd just stick with the 5speeds 1/2. And I'm sure it would give you some peace of mind.

s4 IG-petefromthestreets
Cage plus radio member #1

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Your saying stick with the 5 speeds you mean like the ep3 trans ? I have always run the Ep3 trans since I went boost but I am afraid of stock 4 th gears mainly as that is the gear Ya throw everything at and seems to be the biggest problem for turbo guys

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vdubkilla

Your saying stick with the 5 speeds you mean like the ep3 trans ? I have always run the Ep3 trans since I went boost but I am afraid of stock 4 th gears mainly as that is the gear Ya throw everything at and seems to be the biggest problem for turbo guys

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Yea. Stick with those 1/2 gears. I've yet to make enough power to ruin a 4th gear. But I deff Broke something and will tear it apart someone to find out what.

s4 IG-petefromthestreets
Cage plus radio member #1

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adm_rsx

Personally if you daily your car you won't be racing therefore wouldn't have a need for gears as such. It would be best to stick with the helical cut synchro PPG set. But when your spending 5k+ on them I'd rather get the straight cuts plus PPG only offers a 1-4 gear set so you still have 5th and in some cases 6th gears to use on highways so noise is more then stock but who's car here who needs a built trans isn't louder then stock already?

s4 IG-petefromthestreets
Cage plus radio member #1

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:wavey: Mine is hardly louder than stock. Like really really quiet.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vdubkilla

Wow lots of good advice so far but I'm still unsure what to do .I have heard s/c guys break 1st and 2 nd and us turbo guys break 3 rd and 4 th which I have experienced once already .This may be a stupid question but I believe it's a valid one that will help me and others so here goes .Could I run a stock 1st, 2nd gear and do a ppg sycro set 3,4 as that would likely do the trick for my set up as I don't throw much boost at it in 1 st and 2 nd anyway and have never had an issue with either gear hell I mis shifted 2 nd gear this summer and it probably saw huh 13-15,000+ rpms :oops: really not sure but it was unhurt by it lol I got lucky in some aspects of that over rev I guess .I do run a twin disc on the street and really don't mind it much the one thing that helps is trying to rev match it though as the engagement can be harsh if you don't rev match and still run the stock clutch fork / set up.The Daily driver thing is also good advice Adam I couldn't imagine trying to daily a boosted k and beat on it and expect long term reliability no matter how well it's built .

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I think it's cause we finally get full traction in 4th and are putting the most amount of boost into it which means the most amount of torque, it also spools the turbo quicker so the torque comes on even quicker and 'light switch' like. I think SC guys break second because they get full traction in the gear for the most part. I broke second though, and that was from being turbo as I was never supercharged. It broke at the least expected time, wasn't shifting hard or anything, and it tore the trans up. Destroyed my LSD, damaged the FD, damaged the clutch case, cracked the LSD bearing in half....

Another gear option that is out there is to have the stock gears treated. I sent off a set a couple months ago to get treated by 'racerstev' on honda-tech as he has a really good track record for making b and k gears a good bit stronger. The treatment only cost $200, so I figured it was worth a shot, I have yet to put these gears in yet though. Obviously this is not going to be anywhere near as strong as the PPG gears, but for the price I think it was worth giving it a try, hell I could rebuild (assuming honda ever get's second gear and main shafts off back-order) my trans with treated stock gears several times before adding up to the price of PPG gears.

You have a radio.... Turn up. Lol

Also take and add up the labor of taking the trans out rebuilding and reinstalling the trans over and over again to the over all cost. Starts to become a nuisance as well when having to continue to remove and rebuild trans after trans. I've already built mine twice.

Also I don't get full traction in 2nd gear or even 3rd.

s4 IG-petefromthestreets
Cage plus radio member #1

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adm_rsx

You have a radio.... Turn up. Lol

Also take and add up the labor of taking the trans out rebuilding and reinstalling the trans over and over again to the over all cost. Starts to become a nuisance as well when having to continue to remove and rebuild trans after trans. I've already built mine twice.

Also I don't get full traction in 2nd gear or even 3rd.

s4 IG-petefromthestreets
Cage plus radio member #1

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Haha I usually do, but I just like my car to be pretty damn quiet.

Yea labor cost is a lot, but at least I do my own labor. I will concede though, it's not a particularly fun time doing all the work to get the trans out and all. But for me right now PPGs are just not in the budget.

I was more referring to your typical supercharged setup, like m62 with or without cooling.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aLmk

Haha I usually do, but I just like my car to be pretty damn quiet.

Yea labor cost is a lot, but at least I do my own labor. I will concede though, it's not a particularly fun time doing all the work to get the trans out and all. But for me right now PPGs are just not in the budget.

I was more referring to your typical supercharged setup, like m62 with or without cooling.

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My car hasn't been quite since it had a stock exhaust on it. Lol so a little more noise won't kill me. Plus I like hearing things. Makes it more race car like I guess but Also my car hasn't been a daily since 2010. So I don't really worry about that kind of stuff. Farthest it's driven in one time is to NY for the BoostedLife2013 event in August.

I'll agree there... PPG's are not really budget friendly. Although if they were everyone would have them.


s4 IG-petefromthestreets
Cage plus radio member #1

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adm_rsx

You have a radio.... Turn up. Lol

Also take and add up the labor of taking the trans out rebuilding and reinstalling the trans over and over again to the over all cost. Starts to become a nuisance as well when having to continue to remove and rebuild trans after trans. I've already built mine twice.

Also I don't get full traction in 2nd gear or even 3rd.

s4 IG-petefromthestreets
Cage plus radio member #1

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Hell I took the radio out and installed gauges in place of it besides I wanna here that k20 Scream ! Adam your right even the s/c guys I know dont get full traction til 3 rd or so

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aLmk

Haha I usually do, but I just like my car to be pretty damn quiet.

Yea labor cost is a lot, but at least I do my own labor. I will concede though, it's not a particularly fun time doing all the work to get the trans out and all. But for me right now PPGs are just not in the budget.

I was more referring to your typical supercharged setup, like m62 with or without cooling.

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I do my own work also but these things still have a way of costing a few bucks hence the reason I also don't have ppgs yet